[reeskujo]

I see many people on this forum who are fans of the so-called "Dog Whisperer"..As a positive reinforcement trainer who knows the successes of positive training I feel obligated to post these links for those people who follow or use Cesar's methods!

BLOG.R-PLUSDOGTRAINING.INFO: When is violence required to help a dog? Analysis of Cesar Millian working with Shadow, a wolf-dog hybrid

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University

Paul Owens - Dog Whisperer - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

KOMO-TV interviews me about Cesar Millan

[Lunareclipse]

I have hated Ceasar ever since I saw the episode with the shock collar. That poor dog was squealing in pain.

[cigwyllt]

I've book marked all these articles. If I had a penny for every time I read a post on my forum "I am using the methods I've seen on the Dog Whisperer ............"!!!

The only positive thing I can say about his show is the disclaimer "Don't try this at home!"

[reeskujo]

One of the things that's always worried me is if a child watches his show and then attempts to try out some of his methods on their dog..That has the potential for a very bad outcome!!!..I think it also can leave the impression in a young mind that physically punishing a dog or using some of the crule methods he does is exceptable.

[lange]

Oh Lords me..you know I'll have to chime in too even though I'm a BIG minority in liking most of what Cesar does. I'll probably be boo'd out of here but I have tough skin. Anyway, I don't have time to read right now but I'm especially interested on the dominance article. BUT before I go I'll add, Cesar is not all mighty but I still wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water and Cesar should be given credit for making other extremely valuable advice accessible to your average dog owners. I agree with him about 80% of the time.

Originally Posted by reeskujo

One of the things that's always worried me is if a child watches his show and then attempts to try out some of his methods on their dog..That has the potential for a very bad outcome!!!..I think it also can leave the impression in a young mind that physically punishing a dog or using some of the crule methods he does is exceptable.

Probably the biggest thing that bothers me is along these lines. It's like Cesars show should have a parental guidance sticker as well as a "not for idiots who can't think and be objective." This is the biggest flaw about his show imo. This is why often times I'm on the fence with the entire show.

[reeskujo]

Honestly,any trainer that gets bit as often as he does and has to have a disclaimer because of the methods they use is someone to be concerned about. Not to mention that his methods are outdated by some 20 yr.s or more. His method of training may get the dog to stop the particular behavior short term but being he desn't get to the underlying cause of the problem it's almost gauranteed to return. He seems to think that every bad behavior a dog exhibits is because the dog is trying to be dominant which is a load of crap!

He tries to break dog aggression by using aggression..Violence begets violence even in the canine world. I've had students who have brought their dogs to me after trying to use his methods and it took months for us to undo what was done to these dogs.In all honesty I wouldn't let that man near a pet mouse!!

I watched a show where he literally cut off the dogs oxygen trying to keep the dog from biting him because he decided to use his "little foot action" on the dog for looking at another dog and the dog turned his aggression on Cesar..After he damn near asphyxsiated the dog he pinned the poor thing to the ground..I would've bit him to..Keep in mind this wasn't a dog that was people aggressive,only dog aggressive..Needless to say Nat-Geo made sure to pull the video!

[dogs rule]

And let's also mention about how many times he has had to "reassure" the poor owners of these dogs that "it's alright, don't worry. He's just showing his dominance." The look on some of their faces as their dog is are being strung up by him.
What aload of BS.
No, Cesar, it's not dominance. They just don't like you!! And aren't afraid to show it

[akismaster]

Do you guys find a difference in the effectivity of the training method of Cesar and Positive Reinforcement type?

I see his explanation on him, trying to correct the dogs with the use of a Mother dog's method.

I'm not defending Cesar in any way. But do you guys feel that a Mother dog is being mean whenever she corrects her pups with her own bite?

[dogs rule]

Originally Posted by akismaster

Do you guys find a difference in the effectivity of the training method of Cesar and Positive Reinforcement type?

I see his explanation on him, trying to correct the dogs with the use of a Mother dog's method.

I'm not defending Cesar in any way. But do you guys feel that a Mother dog is being mean whenever she corrects her pups with her own bite?

A Mother dog doesn't go around with a collar/leash and lift her pups up onto their hinds legs and almost cut off their air supply.
And no, I don't feel that a Mother dog is being mean when SHE corrects HER pups with HER own bite.
A lot of the dogs that Cesar works with (and I use that term loosely) are aggressive and he his being aggresive right back. It's a quick fix after all it's only an half hour show. These dogs that you see need to be "healed" not just a "bandage" put on. Which could take months to fix the issues they have.

Example: Your dog is outside barking a lot, and you go outside and start yelling at him, all that you are doing is "barking" back. In his mind he now has both of you barking!!
Sorry Cesar fans, but the methods don't work in my books

[akismaster]

Originally Posted by dogs rule

A Mother dog doesn't go around with a collar/leash and lift her pups up onto their hinds legs and almost cut off their air supply.
And no, I don't feel that a Mother dog is being mean when SHE corrects HER pups with HER own bite.
A lot of the dogs that Cesar works with (and I use that term loosely) are aggressive and he his being aggresive right back. It's a quick fix after all it's only an half hour show. These dogs that you see need to be "healed" not just a "bandage" put on. Which could take months to fix the issues they have.

Example: Your dog is outside barking a lot, and you go outside and start yelling at him, all that you are doing is "barking" back. In his mind he now has both of you barking!!
Sorry Cesar fans, but the methods don't work in my books

I see your point. If you think of it, nothing is a quick fix.

I'm trying to look at a neutral point of view here.

I don't hate both parties when it comes to training and tweaking a dog's response because both are completely different styles altogether. I'm analyzing the effects and the techniques itself.

Let's look at things calmly and try to analyze both parties for crying out loud. Outbursts will get us nowhere. Right?

[dogs rule]

Sorry for any confusion, but I was calm and fail to see where my outburst was. Guess this is what happens when "talking" in a post.
This was just my opinion.

[Lara's mom]

I didn't sense any sort of "outburst" either. You were offering a valid opinion! I wouldn't let that guy anywhere near my girls. I think he is cruel.

[akismaster]

Originally Posted by dogs rule

Sorry for any confusion, but I was calm and fail to see where my outburst was. Guess this is what happens when "talking" in a post.
This was just my opinion.

That's my fault as well. I just hate it when texts and posts are misinterpreted.
ops:

[lange]

I agree that aggression for aggression, nor physical manipulation, doesn't need to enter the picture. I wish Cesar would just find a better method in that regard since there are many others out there. I do, though, still believe all his other ideas are invaluable. He puts most dog issues right where they belong, on the owners lack of knowledge or commitment. His trade mark rules; exercise, discipline, and affection are to the point & right on (also directed toward owners alone). Seeing dogs for who they are; dog, then breed, then name. Fulfilling the dog's needs. Human follow through. Checking your own state of mind before blaming the dog. How to literally trip a dog's mind into over coming a phobia. Tough love to owners. Read dogs body language. Use your own body language. ...I could go on but these are some of the priceless methods that fist come to my mind when I think of Cesar Millan.

IMO, all the viewpoints given on these posts are valid & worth thinking about & debating. Speaking for myself, I'm more than willing to take and learn from everything in life whether I agree with someone 100% or only partially; I'll be open to thinking it over. When problems arise in life, I can either fight it tooth and nail to try to keep it at bay or I can use it, learn from it & then move on.

Whether you like Cesar or not, he HAS helped people. He HAS helped dogs. And he HAS saved lives and opened eyes. He has made an impact. Maybe not all good but definitely more than not, many positive ripples along the way. Is it all worth it at the end of the day? My opinion; heck yeah!

Of course those who are just not open to him won't see any further than they want. In saying that, I'm not blaming anyone for not liking him. We're all passionate about dogs and so that passion is going to spill out for us. That's fine. But I guess I can still see so many of the benefits he has brought to mainstream society. Not many other people have been able to do that. I personally welcome knowledge & tips anywhere they come from. I take what I think works and use it. Whatever I don't agree with I don't take with me. Unfortunately not all people think like this. Many people just want to be spoon-fed the answers and that's where I believe the Dog Whisperer show can cause problems. But is the blame then really Cesar? I just don't think so! We need to take personal responsibility. If there are people doing stupid stuff to their dogs in the name of "Cesar Millan" than I blame THEM. Passing the buck because someone isn't willing to stop and think and analyze is the problem. As adults at least, they should be able to think for themselves and not just scape goat & blame someone who is only, ultimately, trying to help.


That's my peace for now, on the whole Cesar Millan topic. I love him & I can use a lot of what he has to teach, even if not all of it.

-----
I still have to get back to the links you posted, Ree. I haven't made time to read them all yet. Hopefully this week.

[Lunareclipse]

Victoria Stillwell has better ways of doing things.

[lange]

Originally Posted by Lunareclipse

Victoria Stillwell has better ways of doing things.

With some things I agree but I believe<??> she's more of a trainer than behaviorist. I used to watch her show years ago but she isn't very accessible. The only way I can watch her show now is by buying her dvd's. blah..The one thing I hate about animal planet... inaccessible unless you have the channel.

[piratekitty]

I have to say that I agree with lange's posts. I like Cesar Millan also. I may not use or agree with all his methods of trainning, but I think he has helped alot of dogs and dog owners. His method is one form of trainning out of so many out there. You do what works well for you and your dog and breed. I also tend to have more belief in trainners who use there own dogs that are a part of there daily lifes in there presentations when trainning. I take Hunter to trainning weekly, using positive verbal praise. treats, and e collar. My trainners always have there well behaved dogs at all this trainning classes. Ive watched Victoria Stillwell, but Ive never seen her own personal dogs. Does she own a dog? It would be nice to see how well behaved her dogs are.

[akismaster]

Okay I'm going to be frank with you guys. There's a dog behaviorist here in my country that does the same technique.

I understand Cesar Milan's and the local behaviorist in my place's tactics in a way that I've observed the after effects of dogs.

There's no bruising or whatever. All he does is a simple tap. No force applied. Just like a tap on a friend's shoulder to snap out from a current state. That's all there is in what he does.

When it comes to dog training, sometimes I see it as an owner's own want the dog to do tricks. That's just my own opinion

I'd rather have my dog behaved around children. Especially my dog being a husky which has a lot of energy because he's made to be a sled dog.

[dogs rule]

Yes, I agree with Lange too. And yes, I agree with Cesar on some of his techniques. I use to watch his show, until it got to far out of hand for me.
I use the quick "shhh" sound to get their attention when we are out for walks.
Its what ever works for you and your dogs.
I do agree 100% that most of the time it is the owner that is at fault and needs the re-training. Lord knows that I made many mistakes with my first dog Islander. She was a Border CollieX. She had more energy and attitude than I knew what to do with sometimes. In her mind she was probably thinking "exactly what is it you want me to do?" She was extremely intelligent and could have learned so much more, but it was me who failed her.
All I can say is we need to be gentle and patient with our dogs. Love them for who they are and for the joy that they can give.

[reeskujo]

First let's be clear..technically Cesar is neither a trainer or a behaviorist..He has no formal training or education what so ever nor is he endorsed by any trainers,behaviorists,vets or the orgs we belong to..The methods he uses are taken from methods that were outdated some 20yr.s ago..He takes those,misinterprets them and then puts his own spin on it..Dog training is no longer based on the mentality of a wolf pack..While they're are some wolf characteristics that all dogs maintain the fact of the matter is that by domesticating them 100's of years ago and having adapted them to the world of humans through breeding, it's no longer practical or sensible to train them as if they were wolves.In fact research has proven that there's only 14 breeds of dogs that are considered ancient because of their wolf DNA concentration..Akita's being one of them..The other breeds that were tested had extremely minimal wolf DNA..

With that being said..Those of us who DO have an education in training and canine behavior do agree with the disapline (sp),exercise and attention..we do however disagree on how it's carried out..For instance correction should never be physical nor should the Alpha Role be used!..I dare him to Alpha role my Akita!..Attention..While we agree that attention should not be given because the dog demands it or for any type of negative behavior we do not agree that a dog sould have to do something to earn it each and every time..I've had Seigi come to me often because he wants mommy time and I've been busy all day..I don't force him to do something to get it..That's like telling your kids your only going to get my time and my love if you clean your room first!.Cesar not only believes this is how it should be done but from what I've seen of him I've hardly if ever seen him praise a dog when they've done something he's forced them to do..Anyone who's ever watched a dog go through K-9 training has seen how the handlers praise and reward them when they've followed a command...One of the most critical elements for dogs to peacefully co-exhist with humans is the human/dog bond..This is partly accomplished through the love and attention we give them.

Now on to flooding,Cesar's other favorite method..Flooding is the term used when a dog is forced to face it's fear..As in the episode with the Great Dane who was afraid to walk on a tile floor..This has been proven and I've seen it as well to cause so much stress and terror in dogs that they simply shut down..So why does he use it?..because he only has so much time to tape a show and that's the fastest way..Doing it through positive reinforcement takes a lot of time,effort and consistency..Something he apparently doesn't have..

Then there's the "tap" with the foot he likes to use..Well here's a thought..Akita's will not tolerate physical correction period..Therefore using a technique like that is for sure setting yourself up for a bite on the leg..Not to mention you can get the same effect with a verbal correction or a gentle snap of the leash..

What Cesar does is takes a dog who doesn't know him and bullies them and wears them down to get the results he wants..The only reason these dogs comply is out of fear..If they have continued with the change in behavior after he's gone it's simply out of fear of getting the reaction they got from him..There is a huge difference in a dog who obeys out of respect for it's owner and one who does it out of fear!..I can say this much..If he was ever working with one of my dogs and strung him up with a choke chain to the point of cutting off his air way and then proceeded to pin him to the ground and yes he did that with a dog named Shadow,I would take that choke chain off my dog and string him up!!